Why So Much Hate?

I realize that by posting this, I’m opening myself up to a lot of negative comments.  That’s fine.  It’ll only prove my point.

The other day, my friend Amber posted about the raw emotions and bitterness she has been experiencing due to her failed home birth.  What happened next surprised and sickened me.

‘Dr.’ Amy, a known anti-home birth activist who apparently hasn’t been a licensed OB-GYN since 2003, posted Amber’s blog in her anti-home birth Facebook group, and all the members started flaming her.

I’m just surprised at the amount of hate and judgement that Amber has endured from these mothers.  They’ve said that she’s just lucky she has a healthy baby, and her feelings about her birth don’t matter.  They’ve said that birth isn’t something to be proud of, and they don’t understand why she puts so much importance on it.  They said she has brainwashed herself by surrounding herself with like minded people, and birth is just a means to an end.  When someone jumped in to defend Amber by saying that some women feel differently about the birth experience, this ‘intruder’ was attacked.

I had an emergency, life or death c-section.  If I ever had another baby, I’d have no issue getting another c-section.  The only regret I have is not being awake to hear Trinity’s first cry, to see her first moments in the world.  If I could go back and change that, I would, but having a natural birth isn’t important to me.  Does that mean I think all women feel this way?  No.  I understand that every person has different needs, wants, and desires.

Some people have a need to own over fifty pairs of shoes.  I’m fine with a pair of running shoes and a pair of flip flops.  Does that make me better than those with shoe addictions?  No.  It just makes me different.  Personally, makeup is my downfall.  I own more than I would like to admit.

I’m an adventurer.  I enjoy the trip along with the destination.  Other people view the trip, the drive, the flight, etc, as a inconvenience, a means to an end.

Is birth really that different?  Just because someone views the birth in a different light and wants to give birth in another manner than you doesn’t make their views wrong.  Just because someone wants a journey instead of just a destination doesn’t make them wrong, either.  All these things do is make them different, more diverse.

I would never wish losing a child on anyone, not even my worst enemy.  It’s a pain that no one ever deserves.  That being said, I don’t know what losing a child has to do with Amber being upset that her birth story ended the way it did.  She’s happy she has a healthy child.  That doesn’t mean she can’t be sad.  I’ve heard this argument more times than I’d care to admit.  It’s not fair to try to compare different types of emotional distress.  So, because I have a healthy child, I can’t be sad that one of my best friends moved to West Virginia?  I can’t be sad that I don’t get to see my nieces and nephews often enough?

It’s like if I were to go on a road trip to Miami.  If I ended up having car trouble and had to rent a car to get there, I could still have a fabulous time at the destination but be upset about the way I got there.  These two things are mutually exclusive, just like birth trauma and having a healthy child.

Besides, one of my biggest pet peeves is people telling me how to feel or that my feelings are wrong.  You’re not in my head.  You’re not in Amber’s head.  So, please don’t tell us how to feel about something.  Better yet, never tell anyone how they should feel about anything, ever.

Besides, if everyone is told that they can’t be sad about something because someone has it worse, only one person in the world will be allowed to be sad.  So, stop comparing and trying to out-misery people.  It’s annoying and uncouth.  It only makes you look like an asshole.

The last of the ‘Dr.’ Amy people’s complaints is that home birth advocates surround themselves with like-minded people and refuse to see the other side.  I know Amber is extremely open minded.  She’s willing to help anyone who is interested in the subject, but she has never, to my knowledge, forced her views on anyone.  I can understand being upset with the pushy advocates.  I really can.  I hate when anyone approaches a subject with a closed mind and tries to force their views on everyone.  I just have to say, though, that the ‘Dr.’ Amy people are hypocrites   Aren’t they doing the same thing they’re calling home birth advocates out on?  Aren’t they surrounding themselves with like-minded people and behaving like their view is the only correct view?

I just don’t understand how individuals can live with that much hate, how MOTHERS can live with so much hate.  It makes me wonder if something happened to make them so bitter towards home-birth.

I’m sick of the us versus them mentality   We are all humans, we are all different, and we’re all in this together.  Why not take a moment to think about what we are teaching our children when we act with hatred and vengeance.  It only perpetuates the cycle of malevolence.  That does nothing to help the world.  It does nothing to help our children.  Why not take a moment to teach them tolerance, love, pride, and compromise?

This applies to all areas of life, not just home-birth.  Follow the golden rule at all times, and treat others the way you want to be treated: with love, respect, and kindness.

Signature

Advertisements

About pamasaurus

"I have learned to keep to myself how exceptional I am." ~Mason Cooley I'm a married stay at home mom living in Southern New Jersey. I have one daughter, one son, and three furbabies. I love to cook. I love to craft. I love to sew. I just.... love to create in general. I also am pretty fond of adventuring, of exploring new places. I'm shy when I first meet people, but once I'm comfortable with them, you can't shut me up. I'm crazy and silly. I have an unhealthy obsession with dinosaurs.
This entry was posted in serious and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

56 Responses to Why So Much Hate?

  1. Interesting……….usually it is those who choose to give birth at home with a dula or midwife that give people are hard time about those who want to have a hospital birth. breast feed or not to. If everyone would just raise their children as well as I raised mine we would have a much more well-adjusted world! 🙂 Those of us born between 1964 and 1990 (I was actually born in ’62) are the product of “a more open” world. Everyone’s voice counts, everyone has a story, everyone has something to say……..Oh yes, and the drug culture that demands respect without earning it. What has happened is actually called a memme. a part of our collective thinking process. Since we all sit in front of our computers instead of sitting on our front porches, we have no social skills anymore. when you couple that with the “everyone has something important to say” crap you get a bunch of cowardly, anonymous people who are angry at life and take it out on those who they see as weaker – survival of the fittest. It’s terrible and I’m so sorry that this happened to her – she should block the woman from her blog and move on as best she can.

    • I really wish I could block that woman, but sadly, it was most of her sheeple who did the dirty work. That’d be a lot of blocking, and I’m not even sure I can do that. :/

      If I could’ve grown up in the 60’s-70’s, I’d be cool with that.

    • pamasaurus says:

      I’ve seen it come from both sides, and it sucks. That’s my point: everyone should just get along.

      You did an amazing job with your children, and it would be awesome if they were all as well adjusted as they were. I’m trying my best to raise Trinity to love and support instead of hate and put down.

      Her incident was the catalyst for this post, but it’s just an example of hate. I was hoping to point out that hate sucks no matter who or what it’s directed towards.

  2. Dianty says:

    Mean people irritate me! Society today makes bullying so much easier, with this is, in my opinion, a perfect example of adults bullying other adults. I’m so sorry this happened to her.

  3. Jennay says:

    Amen! Can’t we all just get along?? Everyone has feelings and opinions…like my Mama always said…If you don’t have anything nice to say…keep your mouth shut! I’m sorry Amber had to go through this. “Be kind…for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” Regardless of the battle we all have different views/concerns/opinions, but that does not give us the right to put others down because of the way they feel about said battles.

  4. Reblogged this on It Matters To Me and commented:
    It’s overwhelming just how much support I have received from friends and complete strangers! I really appreciate everyone. ❤

  5. Gail says:

    I could not be more proud of you, then now!! I have an incredible daughter and son. They never cease to amaze me. I thank god for the people that they have become!

  6. Sanveann says:

    I read most of the blog comments (the ones that made it through moderation, at least), and I thought they were fairly kind and supportive. I also responded to Amber’s post on the Facebook page and told her I felt sad that she felt that the story was meant to mock her or instruct people to harass her. It sparked a very interesting discussion, which (IMHO) is the point of a blog post. Yes, some posters were angry, but many others said very kind, thoughtful things. (And then the discussion turned into a talk about statistics and orgasmic birth, at which point it was no longer really about Amber or her post at all).

    • pamasaurus says:

      There are quite a few that did not make it through moderation that put her down for her desires to want a home birth, called her stupid for even considering it. You’re just going by the ones that were approved, which, while they do seem supportive, are actually not. Most of them were the ‘just be glad you have a healthy baby’ ones. Like I mentioned in the post, that’s not the point she’s trying to make, and telling someone how they should feel is one of my biggest pet peeves. She’s sad about what happened, it doesn’t rule her rule her life, she’s happy she has a healthy baby (babies), but that doesn’t mean she can’t express her loss. She’s mourning the loss of something she really wanted. I’m still, 12 years later, sad that I wasn’t awake to hear Trinity’s first cry, but that doesn’t mean I’m not happy she is healthy or that I have PDD.

      I was also very sickened by everyone who was saying that women shouldn’t be proud of birth or that births don’t matter/are just a means to an end. Maybe they feel that way, and they have the right to their own feelings. However, they have NO RIGHT to tell someone else that she shouldn’t be proud of accomplishing a natural birth or that the birth is just a means to and end and the trip doesn’t matter.

      • anonomom says:

        Would it change your perspective to imagine that Amber was mourning not being a size 4 (another bodily “achievement” that we have little control over but society idealizes), and Dr. Amy’s faction was telling her to try to be happy that she has a healthy body regardless of her size?

      • pamasaurus says:

        There’s that thought process again. Some people see birth as more than a bodily achievement that we have little control over. Maybe that’s how you see it, and you don’t care about it.

        Just because she wants to have a vaginal birth doesn’t mean that she’s brainwashed, especially (and this is really none of your business) when her first and last csections were just because labor wasn’t progressing fast enough. There was no signs of trauma or danger to her or the baby.

        Just like the natural birth advocates have no right to tell you that you should have a natural home birth, you have no right to tell her that she shouldn’t desire a vaginal birth. People are different. People want different things. I don’t see why you can’t respect that as long as it doesn’t affect you.

      • Sanveann says:

        I’m very sorry to hear that there were some unkind messages.

        Pamasaurus, I don’t think anyone is saying, “You shouldn’t want a vaginal birth.” I think they are saying, “You don’t need to feel bad if you didn’t have one.” Just like (to steal anonomom’s example) they might say, “You don’t need to feel bad if you’re a size 8 — you have a healthy, strong body, and that is more important than being a size 4.” (Imagine that coming from, say, a person who lost a loved one to anorexia, and you might get a better idea of the place loss moms are speaking from.)

        And, fwiw, I personally think birth is something that we have only a certain degree of control over. Much like the weight-loss example: I can run and I can eat well, but my body is always going to be a certain height and my bones are always going to be a certain size. You can get excellent nutrition during pregnancy and pump yourself up psychologically, but you can’t do much to change your baby’s size (or your pelvis’ size) or positioning..

        I know too many moms who have had an ideal of the “perfect” birth, and beat themselves up over their “failure,” even though they had a healthy baby. As someone who has several friends who have lost babies (prematurity, cord accident, trisomy 18 and yes, two homebirth deaths), I wish with all my heart that moms who are mourning their birth experience understand that what they COULD be mourning is a million times worse. I am not saying, “You should never ever feel sad for the loss of a vaginal birth experience” — I am saying, “Go snuggle your baby and rejoice that you have a little one to hold, and pray for those who don’t.”

      • pamasaurus says:

        I totally agree that birth is not something we really control. If it were, mine would have went much differently. I almost died and lost my daughter. I really couldn’t care less if I ever had a natural birth. It’s not important to me. I’m the most non-crunchy person ever. I formula fed. I vaccinated. I stand by all my decisions. I understand how important it is to other people, though.

        I totally understand what you’re saying regarding the baby loss moms. Having a healthy baby and being forced into a c-section (she was told that if she didn’t give in to the c-section, she would have to leave the hospital) are two totally different things. She had a needed c-section with her middle baby, and she is fine with that one. Her issues from this stem from the fact that she wasn’t given a chance and she was treated like less than a human during the process because the doctor didn’t believe in VBAC. Again, losing a baby is something I’d never wish on everyone. Believe me, I understand. But, I also understand that her desire for a vaginal birth is her prerogative and telling her that she should just be happy she has a healthy baby negates her feelings and implies her feelings are wrong.

        FWIW, I’ve seen this go on in the baby loss community towards each other. I’ve seen comments such as “at least your baby died before you had a chance to bond with them” or “at least your child died as a teenager, mine never got to live.” Everyone has the right to be upset about whatever they want as long as it doesn’t directly affect you. I find it disgusting to tell someone that they shouldn’t be sad because someone else could have it worse.

        I’ve also witnessed the attempts to out-misery each other in military wife communities, which I am not a part of but have many friends who are, who says ‘oh you can’t be sad and miss your husband. He’s only deployed 6 months. Mine is deployed 9.’

        Being sad that her birth did not go the way she wanted does not mean that her heart doesn’t break for those with empty beds and cribs.

  7. anonomom says:

    All I’m going to say is that it undermines your credibility to talk about respecting people’s feelings, when you refer to a legitimate MD (who retired from practice to raise her children) as “Dr.”

    • pamasaurus says:

      There’s a difference between a legitimate doctor and a doctor who is using his or her title to gain notoriety and monetary gain. I use the quotes for ‘Dr.’ Oz as well.

      She lost all of her credibility when she used her title to put others down and spread hate.

      • anonomom says:

        I see what you’re saying, but disagreement, even vehement disagreement, is not the same as “hate.”

      • pamasaurus says:

        There’s more going on than vehement disagreement. She’s received comments saying she’s delusional and stupid. Everyone keeps going back to the fact that she’s ‘obviously grieving over this and that must be affecting her child.’ She made one blog post discussing her feelings. That doesn’t mean that she thinks about it all of the time. That doesn’t mean that she lets it affect the way she raises her children.

        Making a group called ‘fed up with natural birth’ in general is questionable. It would be much more productive to make a group promoting non natural birth in a productive way. Sitting around making fun of me for having a zebra print background is not productive.

    • pamasaurus says:

      Also, you don’t see repeated comments calling someone stupid, delusional, and just generally telling her that her feelings are wrong as cyber-bullying?

      How can you not see what you’re doing is bullying. You’re posting our pages on your group and making fun of us. I know, I know, you’re going to say that you’re not making fun… but I would have to vehemently disagree.

      • Sanveann says:

        I think SOME people said that. But I doubt most of them are the ones coming here to clarify what their part in the discussion was.

        Furthermore, while I’m sad to see anyone hurt by criticism of their blog or their post, discussion — both positive and negative — is sort of the nature of the Internet. If you would prefer to only share your blog with people who are going to agree with it, you might want to consider making it password-protected.

      • pamasaurus says:

        Totally not hurt, just annoyed and sickened that people can lack tact and caring. I know you aren’t one who has made the really directly rude comments, but the comments telling her to be thankful she has a healthy baby and that her birth shouldn’t matter as long as the baby is ok are still rude and disrespectful to her feelings. Maybe you don’t feel that way, but I know a lot of people that would agree.

        Telling anyone how they should and should not feel is not respecting their feelings. That’s the part that I’m annoyed about. That’s the point I’m trying to make here, but you guys don’t seem to get it.

        Amy is, yet again, posting another blog post. Maybe I would respect her if she was doing this in a productive manner, but posting a blog and saying ‘the stupidity begins’ makes it really hard to take her seriously as a professional. Yet, you expect me to believe she’s trying to help people, not just cyber-bully and hurt their feelings?

        I don’t mind hearing from people who have different opinions than I do. It just goes back to the original point I’m trying to make: I’ll respect your opinions and have healthy debate as long as you respect mine.

      • Anonomom says:

        “someone stupid, delusional, and just generally telling her that her feelings are wrong as cyber-bullying?”

        No, I don’t. I see cyberbullying as something that causes harm to someone on the level where they would experience fear for their safety or severe emotional distress, not just plain old rudeness in response to a controversial blog post.

        Calling someone stupid or delusional is tactless and mean, but people can be just as mean to Dr. Amy when she says things they don’t like, such as that homebirth is riskier than hospital birth. If you disagree, present your case with facts, people — don’t start belittling her medical degree, call her a bad mother, or imply that’s she’s a frustrated lesbian (there have even been comments that threaten her safety and personal privacy — now THAT is cyberbullying).

        Bottom line is that if you don’t want honest and sometimes even unpleasant responses to your personal feelings/beliefs, don’t post them publicly and enable comments.

      • pamasaurus says:

        Cyberbullying is defined in legal glossaries as:

        *actions that use information and communication technologies to support deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior by an individual or group, that is intended to harm another or others.
        *use of communication technologies for the intention of harming another person
        *use of internet service and mobile technologies such as web pages and discussion groups as well as instant messaging or SMS text messaging with the intention of harming another person.

        Examples of what constitutes cyberbullying include communications that seek to intimidate, control, manipulate, put down, falsely discredit, or humiliate the recipient. The actions are deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior intended to harm another. Cyberbullying has been defined by The National Crime Prevention Council: “When the Internet, cell phones or other devices are used to send or post text or images intended to hurt or embarrass another person.”

        A cyberbully may be a person whom the target knows or an online stranger. A cyberbully may be anonymous and may solicit involvement of other people online who do not even know the target. This is known as a ‘digital pile-on.’

        I believe that Amy posting her post in a group of women who are against Natural Child Birth would constitute a digital pile-on. I’ve explained here what has happened, but she’s still receiving comments calling her names, telling her she should just be happy her baby is healthy, and generally discrediting her feelings.

        Do you really expect me to believe that Amy posts these blogs to ‘help the women’ when she captions them with ‘the stupidity begins’ and refers to them as ‘believers in woo’? No, Amy is a troll, a cyberbully.

        Like I’ve mentioned before, I had a hospital birth and have no desire to have a homebirth. However, that doesn’t mean I don’t respect other people’s decisions to do so. Maybe if Amy was trying to educate instead of make fun of women, she wouldn’t be called names.

        I’m fine with getting comments on my blog. I’m also perfectly fine with responding to them. If Amy doesn’t want to be called a troll, then she shouldn’t have a public blog or facebook page, either. The road works both ways. If you can’t handle me calling your group (which, I realize everyone in the group isn’t like this, but I’m generalizing based on observation) out on their tollishness, hypocritical behaviors, cyberbullying, and general hate-mongering, then don’t make posts about me or my friends. Simple as that. You can stop making the same points over and over. I’ve explained the behavior I have issues with and why I have issues with it. I won’t be changing my mind about it, at least based on anything that has been said to me. I completely understand the points that have been made to me and have explained why I feel differently.

  8. Lisa says:

    The thread is still on that group, and can be read. Many of the concerns were that she was showing signs of PPD. As a mother who has suffered I feel it IS important to act when we see signs.

    • pamasaurus says:

      I have read the whole thread. I know some people were genuinely concerned. I just don’t like how people have belittled her feelings and want of a home birth. They’ve dismissed it as her being ‘brainwashed’ and said that birth is just a means to an end, never taking into account that people are all different. People have different needs and desires. The world would be a pretty boring place if we were all the same. It would be an even better place if we could respect each other’s differences and stop hating people based on their choices.

      • anonomom says:

        I have compassion for the pain she is clearly feeling. I hope she gets some help for it, so she can enjoy the family she has, whether or not she has a natural vaginal birth next time. I have experienced (and continue to experience) a similar level of emotional pain, not due to anything about my birth experience, but due to a chronic illness my child has.

        But what is served by wallowing in that pain? It would be counterproductive and even selfish of me to nurture and focus on that pain, even though I have daily reminders of it due to my daughter’s symptoms, and to even plan another pregnancy so that I could have a healthy child experience. That would be energy I would be taking away from being present emotionally with the daughter I have, or bringing another life into the world for any other reason than desiring to nurture a new little person, regardless of their birth or health condition.

        Things can hurt, but it’s important to move on and be present for your living children, who are the whole reason for birth in the first place.

      • pamasaurus says:

        I don’t think she mentioned not being able to enjoy her family fully. I understand where you are coming from, and I know maybe her word choices were a little strong, but she doesn’t let it rule her life. One blog post isn’t the be all and end all of her personality. Maybe she wrote it to show others that it’s ok to be sad about the method of birth, even if you do have a healthy baby. Judging by the comments, most people feel that it shouldn’t matter how the baby is born. There’s a lot of groups about people who have had traumatic births, and they’re constantly being told that they should just be happy they have a healthy baby. I know another blogger that woke up during her c-section and could feel everything. You know what she hears from people on the internet all the time? Yup. ‘You should just be happy you have a healthy baby.’ While she’s in therapy for this, she shouldn’t have to hear those types of comments from anyone. Nobody should.

        I, for one, am sick of people not being able to talk about their pain openly without being criticized for being a bad parent. Yes, essentially that is what you are saying to Amber when you tell her that she needs to man up and be present for her children.

        I am truly sorry about your daughter’s condition. No child, or parent, should ever have to go through that. My sister-in-law has Down’s Syndrome. While it’s not even remotely the same as your situation, I have a pretty good idea of the emotional toll it takes on people to raise a special needs child. I’m not sure what your daughter’s condition is, so I could be completely off base with that example.

        Saying, though, that Amber should stop wallowing in pain based on one blog post is the same as someone telling you that you can never talk about your daughter’s condition being draining ever again because you’d be wallowing in the pain. Again, I completely understand where you could get the idea that she was wallowing, but she followed up with comments and such to the contrary. Yet, everyone continued to gang up on her.

        So, if you were to write a post about your daugher’s condition and the toll it takes on you mentally, someone commented about you needing help and essentially saying that you aren’t a good parent because you’re not 100% present, and you explained that it wasn’t affecting your ability to parent, how would you feel if those people continued to talk behind your back (and also to your face) about how you obviously have a problem. Not to mention, added to the top of that, she’s being told that her sadness shouldn’t exist because she had a healthy baby.

        So, you’re not allowed to be sad sometimes about your daughter because it makes you a bad parent, but also, some people have empty cribs, so you should just buck up and be happy you have a baby at all. That sounds harsh, and I am just trying to get a point across. This is what you guys sound like to us. The way that comment would make you feel is the way that Amber is feeling right now. It’s been explained, but yet everyone keeps trying to ‘get her the help she obviously needs so she can be present for her baby.’

        I wrote a post a little while ago about how my daughter’s classmate was murdered. Does that mean I was wallowing in self pity? No. Does that mean that I was legitimately sad? Yes. Does that mean that I am not 100% present for my daughter? No.

        I just think you guys jumped to conclusions without getting to know her. I also think it was unprofessional for Amy to claim she’s trying to educate people when she just posts this stuff in the community instead of commenting to Amber directly.

        Lastly, about having another birth. Amber did say that she is thinking about a 4th. She didn’t say it’s because she wants a home birth. She legitimately wants another baby. She’s an amazing mom, and her kids are amazing, well behaved, smart, and wonderful. What she said was that she doesn’t necessarily want to go through another c-section. I don’t blame her. C-sections are serious business.

      • anonomom says:

        I totally get what you are saying. And there is no need for anyone to use harsh language, certainly. I think the people who are “fed up with natural childbirth” are reacting to what we see as a yet another way for women to be held to unreasonable standards that we internalize and blame ourselves for failing to achieve. Most of the time, you just aren’t in control of your pregnancy, labor and delivery, and to make women feel that they are, is just setting them up to feel like Amber does — like she missed out on something that she should have had, due to spurious reasons (the OB doesn’t “believe in” VBACs for example).

        The vast majority of OBs just want to prevent catastrophic outcomes, BEFORE it looks like mom and/or baby are in serious danger (at which point it may be too late). Yet they are treated by NCB fanatics like scalpel-wielding maniacs who just want to get to their golf games in time. I know, because I was one of those brainwashed NCB fanatics. After hanging around the Skeptical OB for a while, I realized that my attitude was unfair to all the hardworking, caring OBs out there, and was flat-out untrue. When an OB has devoted years of her life to *literally* saving mothers and babies from death and disability, don’t you think it would really chap her ass to see her profession being denigrated, women being lied to, and babies literally dying when they could have been saved in a hospital?

        Since you are not in the NCB world, you are probably not aware that the Midwives’ Alliance of North America has collected thousands of records of homebirths in the US, but outright refuses to publicly release the death rates?

        http://www.skepticalob.com/2012/12/are-the-folks-at-manas-division-of-research-liars-or-fools.html

        Dr. Amy is not just a troll that gets her jollies from hurting people’s feelings on the internet. I believe she is deliberately inflammatory because it helps spread her message, and her message is critically important.

      • pamasaurus says:

        I’m not getting into a debate about home birth statistics. I read the article. I then did some basic googling and found several articles calling the article out on false information. I don’t have the time or desire to wade through all the BS to find the real statistics.

        I did, however, read one article that said the US has the highest C-section rate, which is currently rising, and also one of the highest maternal death rates among developed countries, which is also rising. This information is based only on hospital births. So, are c-sections *REALLY* saving mothers and babies from death and disability? I don’t know. It doesn’t seem like it’s helping, though.

        I’ve had some really awesome doctors in my lifetime. I’ve also had some really awful ones. I wouldn’t say all OBs are scalpel-wielding maniacs, but I’ve known some people who have.

        Truth is, I think Amy was probably a cold doctor. I might be wrong, but the way she acts on the interwebs leads me to believe she has no bedside manner and would flip on you if you so much as disagreed with her about one small thing.

        She’s a bitch. Sorry for the harsh language, but she is. Maybe she’s trying to push her agenda further by being a bitch about it, and if that’s the case, I just got her a lot more publicity based on my blog stats today. However, I don’t know if that’s the case. She seems awfully anxious to just post things in the group calling people stupid instead of going to the person to try to educate them. She’s probably the type of doctor who would make fun of her patients behind their back. That’s what she’s essentially doing with her facebook group.

        Nothing you have said has made me change my mind about Amy. I still think she’s a troll, and I’m not sure if her message is really that important or correct. Maybe one day I’ll do the research, but even if Amy is correct, I’ll still think she’s an awful human being.

        Just for the record, I’m not a fan of the in your face natural birth people, either. That was the whole point of my post: compromise, letting people make their own decisions.

        I wish you guys could see what you’re doing. It’s the same as the extreme natural birth advocates. You’re surrounding yourself with like-minded people and bullying those who have different opinions. What fun is it in life to have no diversity? Every one of us is different and unique, and that is an amazing thing.

        Funny thing? If Amy would have never posted about Amber, I probably never would have known who she is. This post wouldn’t have been written. So, bravo to her for gaining notoriety and spreading her name. It seems to me that her message would be better spread via love and compassion.

      • Sanveann says:

        Actually, the U.S. doesn’t have the highest C-section rate in the world by a long shot — ours is 31.8 percent, but several countries top 40 percent, including China, at 46 percent.

        Incidentally, many countries have a similar or higher C-section rate but much lower maternal mortality rate. Australia has a C-section rate of 31 percent but a quarter of our maternal mortality rate (7/100,000 as opposed to our 21/100,000). In Italy, there’s a C-section rate of 38 percent but their maternal mortality is a mere 4/100,000. So, saying that the C-section rate in the U.S. is causing maternal mortality doesn’t really hold up if you look at it across other countries.

      • pamasaurus says:

        Thank you for the info. Like I said, I just glanced at a page without checking references.

        If you have statistics and science on your side, why do you have to present the information with such bitterness and venom? If I, a c-section, non-crunchy mama, would rather go hang out with the NB people, imagine what a person trying to make a decision is going to think? The way Amy behaves would definitely not change my mind about doctors being cold and heartless, it would actually cement the deal. I just wish you guys could see what you’re doing is just as bad as the extreme home birth mamas.

        You’re telling everyone that their pain about not having a birth go the way they wanted doesn’t matter. You’re negating their feelings and making them feel like crap for being sad. It’s not constructive. I don’t understand why people can’t have a more open mind.

        All you guys did was prove my point. Instead of coming to me with her concerns, Amy posted my link (and Ambers, and a bunch of others) in her little group and let you guys handle things and stand up for her. Then, you say my feelings are wrong because I am sad sometimes that I wasn’t awake to hear my daughter’s first cry. I should just be happy 100% of the time that she’s alive and healthy. I wish you guys would realize that the two things are mutually exclusive.

        Guess what? One of my best friends lost three babies. Unless you’ve lost at least that many, you’re not allowed to ever be sad about anything. Ever. Yeah…. It doesn’t work that way.

        And, again, my point was proven when a couple of people said that my metaphor about travelling was wrong. Maybe those people wouldn’t be annoyed, but I would. It doesn’t mean that I would let it ruin my trip. It just means that I would be annoyed. The two have nothing to do with each other. No amount of planning would change the fact that Plan A didn’t work out, and I had to go with B, C, or D. People react to different situations in many different ways. None of them should be considered wrong as long as they’re not hurting people.

        It’s been said by your group that people in the home birth community surround themselves with like minded individuals and that brainwashes them. Yet… I believe you say that you surrounded yourself with like minded individuals when you decided to be against home birth. Hm. Group think? Diversity is good. Surrounding yourself with people with different opinions is good. Respecting other people’s feelings and opinions is good, as long as those opinions don’t purposely hurt someone else. It’s when you’re on either extreme that things get bad. That’s when you can’t see someone else’s point of view and can only retaliate when someone questions you or has different feelings than you.

        The point of my entry wasn’t that homebirth is bad or that csections are bad. The point was RESPECT.

        I respect your feelings about birth. You can believe it’s nothing to be proud of. However, you cannot push that belief on me. I happen to believe it’s a big accomplishment to grow and birth a human. It’s something over half the population will never get to do. Heck, it’s obviously something I couldn’t do since I ended up with a knocked out cold csection. The opposite is true, too. I cannot tell you that you should feel special. Like I said, mutual respect for each other’s opinions and feelings without hurting anyone.

        You’d get a lot more people on your side if you’d just remember one thing: Never, under any circumstances in any situation, tell anyone how they should and should not feel. Feelings and emotions are pretty uncontrollable. They’re reflexes to external stimuli. I can’t control the fact that something makes me sad anymore than someone can control birth.

      • anon@anon.com says:

        Sorry my comments aren’t linked to your posts; it seems I’m unable to reply directly to a comment for some reason. Anyway, to respond to your questions:

        “If you have statistics and science on your side, why do you have to present the information with such bitterness and venom? … The way Amy behaves would definitely not change my mind about doctors being cold and heartless, it would actually cement the deal.”

        Would you rather deliver a baby with a cold and heartless yet fully competent doctor, or a heartwarmingly friendly midwife that doesn’t meet the standard training of midwifery in any first world country (CPMs)? Most women who choose CPMs have no idea what they are getting, because CPMs have basically made up a credential and awarded it to themselves based on appallingly deficient training. Which one is truly cold and heartless? The leader of the NCB movement, Ina May Gaskin, let her own premature baby die rather than seek medical help, but that information is never in the glowing reviews of her midwifery model (though it is in her own book). I think it is pretty relevant to her beliefs about what is and isn’t necessary medical care, don’t you?

        ” Diversity is good. Surrounding yourself with people with different opinions is good. Respecting other people’s feelings and opinions is good, as long as those opinions don’t purposely hurt someone else.”

        If you hung around our group more, you would see that there is a huge diversity of opinions, and many of us do believe that Dr. Amy is too harsh. But you can’t argue with the fact that “bitches get things done,” as Tina Fey said. People can’t help but be drawn in to a controversy, whereas they tend to yawn and click away when dry science and statistics are posted. Amy’s inflammatory posts get way more page views than her scientific posts, and she get comments all the time from people who start out super offended and then gradually come around to seeing extreme NCB ideology for what it is — brainwashing that is damaging to women and babies. (I was one of those people, and I am all for natural birth btw; I had three great unmedicated births. But I have learned that I was lucky and that we don’t control labor. NCB ideology leads women to feel that if they do everything “right,” labor will go the way they want, and if it doesn’t, well they must have done something wrong. And “wrong” often means listening to their doctor, or getting a medically necessary c-section.

        I have also learned that women should have the right to birth the way they want, whether that is a c-section for non-medical reasons or a homebirth, but we cannot make those decisions without accurate information, and the NCB leaders are reprehensively hiding that information. Outright censorship is rampant in NCB places like mothering.com, which is especially horrifying when homebirth stories with adverse outcomes are literally deleted, all to protect the hurt the image of homebirth as safe and glorious. http://www.skepticalob.com/2012/12/the-professional-homebirth-advocates-most-important-tool.html

        “mutual respect for each other’s opinions and feelings without hurting anyone.”

        Respect their feelings, yes….opinions, no. Why should I respect someone’s opinion if it is factually wrong? And if they refuse to consider that they might be wrong? *Especially* if that opinion contributes to babies dying and being injured at homebirths?

        “You’d get a lot more people on your side if you’d just remember one thing: Never, under any circumstances in any situation, tell anyone how they should and should not feel. Feelings and emotions are pretty uncontrollable. ”

        There is a difference between telling someone how to feel in a shaming manner, and trying to help them see a healthy point of view. For example, I am upset about my weight, because I have been brainwashed by society to think that it’s important for women to be thin. My therapist is constantly trying to get me to see that I have a healthy body that I need to learn to respect and enjoy. I don’t deny that shaming happens in our group, and I agree that it is hurtful and counterproductive. But I can’t argue with the fact that babies’ lives are at stake, and Dr. Amy has already saved lives by influencing people to birth in hospitals.

        tl;dr: I agree with many of your points about being overly harsh. But I still support Dr. Amy’s goals and understand why she acts the way she does.

      • pamasaurus says:

        WordPress, for some reason, stops putting the reply button on posts after so many replies. I don’t know how to reword that to make it less confusing. Just, wordpress is weird.

        Personally, I would find another doctor. I have no problem with firing a doctor because they lack bedside manners or don’t treat me with the respect that I believe I deserve. I’ve always managed to find ones I have liked. I’m paying how much money for a service? I’m definitely not going to settle for someone who treats me like a second rate person, like my thoughts don’t matter.

        Like I’ve mentioned before, I would never have a home birth and I totally understand your issues with it. I have no idea who Ina May Gaskin is. I have no idea what her book is about. It’s not important to what I was saying: What I’m saying is that if someone who was on the line came across Amy, she might be swayed the other way. I probably would have been at least inclined to believe others because Amy seems really inflammatory and defensive. In my mind, if she had science and statistics on her side (again, I haven’t read any statistics from either side that I haven’t found a coordinating article disputing it, and I don’t care enough to research it more. Whether or not home birth is safe is not my point.), she wouldn’t need to be so defensive. To me, she comes off as being backed into a corner. I don’t know if her statistics are right, but the way she presents them makes me think she’s grasping at straws and trying to distract us with her ‘crass personality.’

        I don’t think her methods seem very constructive. Maybe it does work for some, but for everyone ‘converted’ how many of them click away because they feel the way I do? I’ve spent the past day reading her blog, and nope. She’s still a bitch. I’ve read replies to comments saying that people aren’t allowed to feel that not having an epi is an achievement. You say that Amy is open to unmediated births, but I have yet to see a comment from her supporting that.

        Again, I’m not getting into the whole home-birth is unsafe thing because I don’t want a home birth, so I have not done the research. That link you posted? I can find a few from the extreme home birthers countering every point. One side is lying, and I’m not sure which. If someone was on the fence, like I’ve said before, and saw both sides like that, which side would she be more likely to believe? Most would probably pick the one that is presented in a respectful manner, not the one attacking with an underlining tone of resentment and hate.

        It all goes back to the fact that I think there are better ways to educate women. Taking my friend’s blog post and putting it up in a forum, telling her that she’s not allowed to be sad because she has a healthy baby, and telling her that she’s delusional and brainwashed is not the way I’d go about it, personally.

        Respect that they have the right to their own opinion and not be called stupid and delusional for it? You don’t have to agree with the opinion. Heck, you don’t have to stand by and let someone have, what you think of as, a delusional opinion (I’m trying to stay neutral, not trying to attack you there). You can approach the subject with respect for the individual. Instead of making fun of these women (really, look in the group. Some of the posts and comments are mean and hateful. I know you guys don’t see it, but I bet some would feel differently if they were on the receiving end of them.) That’s what I meant by being respectful of someone’s opinion. Assuming your side is correct here: I don’t think the women who choose homebirth are knowingly putting their babies in danger. When you mock them and approach them with hostility, they’re going to feel attacked. That’s not going to help your case at all.

        Obviously I didn’t (along with Amber and a few other commenters) didn’t feel that ‘just be happy you have a healthy baby’ is a constructive way of trying to help someone have a healthy point of view. Do some googling. It’s the general consensus that it’s one of the WORST things you can say to someone who has had, what they would consider, a traumatic birth experience. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again… it’s the equivalent of telling someone that they can’t be sad because someone has it worse. So, only one person in the world is ever allowed to be sad. You’re negating her feelings and telling her that her emotions are wrong. It’s a frustrating feeling.

        It goes along with any situation… never start with “you should be happy” “don’t be sad that..” or anything like that. I suffer from extreme anxiety, and grew up being told to ‘just calm down’ whenever I would have a panic attack. It’s not constructive. I already knew my panic was irrational, and I would just get frustrated and feel worse that I couldn’t change the way I was feeling.

        Amber has admitted that she had PDD, and was in therapy for it. There’s a remaining, lingering sadness that stays. That doesn’t mean that she loves her family any less. It just means that every now and then she has a pang of sadness. It’s good to talk about your feelings instead of hiding it, right? Well, that’s what she did, and everyone basically told her that her feelings were incorrect and she shouldn’t care if she had a c-section. I had one, and I’ll probably end up with another one if I ever have another kid. Does that mean I have to be excited about it? No. I can be happy that my baby is happy and healthy and still be sad that I had a csection.

        That’s what this all stems from, I guess. Well, the really mean comments she received were the starting point, but the fact that you guys refuse to see that telling her to be happy she has a healthy baby is wrong is a big part of why I haven’t stopped responding to comments. That and most of you have kept it civil.

        tl;dr: To me, Amy comes across as defensive and spiteful. I’ll still stick to my saying that you shouldn’t tell anyone that their feelings are wrong. Maybe it’s a matter of semantics instead of intent at this point, but I’m trying to keep you guys from offending another traumatic birth survivor in the future.

    • I can assure you that I DID go through a bad time with PPD after my son was born, but I am just SAD. 🙂

      • I’m really confused as to why people think I do not enjoy my family. Where in any of my posts or ‘About Me’ section do I mention not enjoying my family? I’m really frustrated with the assumptions. Moreso than I really should be. People are taking my words and twisting them around. So I’m sad means I’m unhappy with my family? Absolutely not. Being a mother is tough, some days are more tough than others, but does that mean I am unhappy with them? NO.

        I love my family. No matter what.

  9. Bravo! I was in that giant FB thread and got flamed. Not that I minded, I think we need to be able to stand up to even our harshest critics. I agree with all you’ve written, we’re all different, and instead of judging, we need to support eachother. Sometimes people just need to vent, it’s part of the healing process, let’s just allow them to.

    • pamasaurus says:

      I read it, and I was so angry for you! They’re definitely in that ‘group think’ mentality and feel the need to attack anyone who doesn’t have the exact same opinions they do. I was impressed with the way you stood up for yourself!

      That’s what’s wrong with our society these days: differences are seen as bad. They’re not. Differences are what make us awesome!

      • anonomom says:

        “I did, however, read one article that said the US has the highest C-section rate, which is currently rising, and also one of the highest maternal death rates among developed countries, which is also rising. This information is based only on hospital births. So, are c-sections *REALLY* saving mothers and babies from death and disability? I don’t know. It doesn’t seem like it’s helping, though.”

        I thought you weren’t getting into a debate 😉 but I’ll bite anyway. My layperson understanding of this issue is that (a) yes absolutely c-sections do save lives, and (b) maternal mortality is a problem, but they are IN SPITE OF not because of the c-section rate.

        People in the US are less healthy, more obese, and more ethnically diverse (African Americans and Hispanic Americans have higher rates of high blood pressure and diabetes) than people in other developed countries. We are more likely to be uninsured and thus lack preventive care. No one knows what the ideal c-section rate is, but that doesn’t stop many people from decrying the fact that it is “too high.” I don’t know about you, but I’d rather have an unnecessary c-section because my doctor is worried about something that turns out to be nothing, than the other way around.

        Anyway, I think we will have to agree to disagree on some things, but I appreciate your taking the time to engage in this discussion.

      • pamasaurus says:

        Thank you for the info. Like I said, I just glanced at a page without checking references.

        If you have statistics and science on your side, why do you have to present the information with such bitterness and venom? If I, a c-section, non-crunchy mama, would rather go hang out with the NB people, imagine what a person trying to make a decision is going to think? The way Amy behaves would definitely not change my mind about doctors being cold and heartless, it would actually cement the deal. I just wish you guys could see what you’re doing is just as bad as the extreme home birth mamas.

        You’re telling everyone that their pain about not having a birth go the way they wanted doesn’t matter. You’re negating their feelings and making them feel like crap for being sad. It’s not constructive. I don’t understand why people can’t have a more open mind.

        All you guys did was prove my point. Instead of coming to me with her concerns, Amy posted my link (and Ambers, and a bunch of others) in her little group and let you guys handle things and stand up for her. Then, you say my feelings are wrong because I am sad sometimes that I wasn’t awake to hear my daughter’s first cry. I should just be happy 100% of the time that she’s alive and healthy. I wish you guys would realize that the two things are mutually exclusive.

        Guess what? One of my best friends lost three babies. Unless you’ve lost at least that many, you’re not allowed to ever be sad about anything. Ever. Yeah…. It doesn’t work that way.

        And, again, my point was proven when a couple of people said that my metaphor about travelling was wrong. Maybe those people wouldn’t be annoyed, but I would. It doesn’t mean that I would let it ruin my trip. It just means that I would be annoyed. The two have nothing to do with each other. No amount of planning would change the fact that Plan A didn’t work out, and I had to go with B, C, or D. People react to different situations in many different ways. None of them should be considered wrong as long as they’re not hurting people.

        It’s been said by your group that people in the home birth community surround themselves with like minded individuals and that brainwashes them. Yet… I believe Saveanne said that she surrounded herselfself with like minded individuals when she decided to be against home birth. Hm. Group think? Diversity is good. Surrounding yourself with people with different opinions is good. Respecting other people’s feelings and opinions is good, as long as those opinions don’t purposely hurt someone else. It’s when you’re on either extreme that things get bad. That’s when you can’t see someone else’s point of view and can only retaliate when someone questions you or has different feelings than you.

        The point of my entry wasn’t that homebirth is bad or that csections are bad. The point was RESPECT.

        I respect your feelings about birth. You can believe it’s nothing to be proud of. However, you cannot push that belief on me. I happen to believe it’s a big accomplishment to grow and birth a human. It’s something over half the population will never get to do. Heck, it’s obviously something I couldn’t do since I ended up with a knocked out cold csection. The opposite is true, too. I cannot tell you that you should feel special. Like I said, mutual respect for each other’s opinions and feelings without hurting anyone.

        You’d get a lot more people on your side if you’d just remember one thing: Never, under any circumstances in any situation, tell anyone how they should and should not feel. Feelings and emotions are pretty uncontrollable. They’re reflexes to external stimuli. I can’t control the fact that something makes me sad anymore than someone can control birth.

    • Pamasaurus told me about how you got flamed and glad you stood up for yourself, too!

  10. I haven’t read that particular ‘Dr’ Amy post, but bravo to you posting this Pam. I wish I didn’t ‘wallow’ in my cesarean section, but that’s darn near impossible when I have flashbacks and nightmares. My psych has told me that I’m clearly traumatised and that it would be no different to if I’d have been in a car accident or witnessed a natural disaster. I’ve had people say to me “but you have a healthy baby” and that used to make me angry, angry because my friend did lose her baby ten days after my baby was born. Now I feel sad for them. Sad, because they lack the empathy and tact any reasonable human should feel when a person says “I’m distressed and traumatised because *insert issue here*”. I’m not going to seek out the ‘Dr’ Amy post or thread, but I’m more than familiar with her brand of bullying and belittling. I just hope that with time, Amber can heal.

    • Thank you 🙂 I do hope that one day I can heal from my experience. It was how horrible I was treated at that the hospital that sticks out the most. Having a patronizing OB yell at you at talk to you as if you’re just a piece of shit while in the midst of a contraction is just ugh.

      • I just can’t imagine that at all & I’m so sorry you experienced that. My OB was (& I believe still is) amazing. My C/S wasn’t an emergency, but not entirely elective because I had to have it for her to be born safely (& is do it again if I had to). I know things go wrong in any situation & I was that unlucky person.

  11. Angie says:

    I have just nominated your blog for the Very Inspiring Blogger Award:
    http://angiesgrapevine.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/very-inspiring/
    Please accept my kind regards without any obligation. This is my thanks for being such a wonderful supporter and inspiration to me.

  12. Sara says:

    Just with regards to your personal attack on Amy Tuteur, calling her a bitch and a cold doctor etc. are you aware that Amy used to write a blog all about failure in the health care system and by health care providers to treat their patients with respect? Essentially advocating for kinder treatment for patients. Does that sound like something a cold hearted bitch would be interested in?

    • pamasaurus says:

      No, it doesn’t. She may have done that in the past, but that doesn’t mean it’s how she comes off now. People change. I would like to know what happened to her to make her go from a supporter of kinder treatment of patients to someone that goes around mocking and attacking random people on the internet behind their backs.

    • pamasaurus says:

      Anyone who could write this article, basically saying that anyone who is offended by the statement ‘at least you have a healthy baby’ is stupid, isn’t a warm, caring, nice person in my book. Just because you have a healthy baby doesn’t mean you can’t be sad that you didn’t have the birth you wanted.

      http://www.skepticalob.com/2011/08/i-had-c-section-and-all-i-got-was.html

      So, maybe instead of having her followers coming here to stand up for her, she should start being, I don’t know, a decent human being?

    • pamasaurus says:

      One last thing. I just read this quote and had to share it:

      “When you want to put a woman down, remember that if you want her to come to you with questions, be the person she wants to receive answers from.”

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s